Was discussed recently: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195</a>

There's an exception for batteries that "retain at least 80% of its original capacity after 1,000 charge cycles." Coincidentally, iPhones and probably other flagships already qualify for this exception.

As others have mentioned this is for phones with batteries that can’t survive a reasonable number of cycles.<p>That’s a reasonable exemption, in my opinion. I don’t want to pay the extra penalties of reduced structural rigidity and water tightness for a battery that I don’t need to replace for 3-4 years anyway.<p>I do wish one manufacturer would make a flagship phone with replaceable battery so all of the uncompromising replaceable battery fans could have a phone that fits their niche demands rather than trying to force everyone else to pay the extra costs (price, size, water intrusion, structural rigidity) that would come with laws forcing all phones to have removable batteries.

I think it may help to clarify that there are two Regulations which seem to have been muddled in the comments:<p>* Regulation 2023/1670 provides, inter alia, that smartphone manufacturers must make replacement batteries available to consumers, except where the 80%/1000 cycle criteria is met, in which case replacement batteries can be made only available to professional repairers. There is also a requirement for it being able to replace the battery but this does permit use of non-trivial tools under certain circumstances.<p>* Regulation 2023/1542 provides that portable batteries (not limited to smartphones) must be readily end-user replaceable if they meet certain criteria unless the strict waterproofing/medical industry criteria are met.

I just called the shop to replace the perfectly fine e-Call battery in my soon four year old Hyundai car. 250€ to change a battery that has a ten year lifespan. I am not allowed to replace it on my own as it would invalidate the five year long guarantee provided by the manufacturer (not the one by law). Why is this stuff not considered as well?<p>Also curious whether the "specialized devices" exemptions are AND requirements. Even if those are AND, wouldn’t smartphone manufacturers try to satisfy all three of them?

I've a plan: 2027 I'm buying a Motorola with first-party support for GrapheneOS and a replaceable battery. Things are looking up!

The number of people worried about a slightly thicker phone are absolutely baffling to me. I honestly think there is no hope for us broadly. Normally I'd say that people cannot deal with minor inconveniences -- but this does not even register as an inconvenience.<p>From my view, this is a _perceived_ downgrade in luxury status. Not even a real downgrade in luxury status -- and not a downgrade in convenience whatsoever.

Rule does not apply to gadgets that already retain 80% charge capacity at 1k charge cycles.<p>What is the share of the smartphone market that this applies to?

My initial reaction as an EU citizen is “oh hell no” because it gave me flashbacks to removable covers with clips that broke my nails. But after reading the article where it mentions that the battery is also considered removable if standard tools should be used, I’m quite okay with it. I welcome getting more rugged and durable devices.

Can I play devil's advocate for a moment? Imagine that Apple decides to protest this new rule. They say: We will stop stelling iPhones in the EU. However, you can buy from non-EU countries (US, Canada, AUS/NZ, UK, etc.), and we will ship to you, or you can use a third party shipper. I know, I know, HN crowd loves to play legal games like this ("this one weird trick...") -- they rarely work in the Real World.<p>Real legal question: What prevents this "legal hack"?

Not perfect, but the “80% capacity after 1000 cycles” part at least creates some decent incentives imo.

I tend to find these days that OS version obsolescence and charge port damage happen far sooner than the battery losing significant capacity

I like the idea in principle, but I hope the implementation does not just result in thicker phones with worse water resistance and higher prices.<p>The real win would be if batteries are replaceable without specialized tools, parts are available for several years, and manufacturers are not allowed to use software pairing to block third-party repair.<p>Otherwise we may technically get “replaceable batteries”, but not the practical right to keep a phone alive longer.

Previous discussion: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47834195</a>

In principle, this is the kind of right sentiment but for the wrong things.<p>I can't remember a phone that died because of the battery since the era of Ni-Cd cells in early cell phones. I don't think I've never discarded a phone with a li-ion battery because of the battery. It's always physical breakage or getting too slow to be usable, because of age.<p>Sure, I don't spend a cycle per day. Not even every other day. That's probably rare, I get that. But much rather than because of dying batteries I'd like EU to mandate<p>- the phone should come with full keys so that I can own the machine if I want to - or at the very least the hardware must become unlockable once the support period ends - individual components should be made available for independent repairs - repairs must not need software pairing of hardware components on unlocked devices<p>because of right to own and right to repair which shouldn't be "rights" but nonnegotiable traits of physical properties like they used to be.

Headline is misleading as the loopholes written into the regulation will likely end up exempting many/most phones

Classic EU move, the last-minute 1000-cycle exemption undercuts the entire regulation.

All new phones sold in the EU already include information on declared battery life and the number of charge cycles before reaching 80% battery health. The vast majority of phones will meet this requirement.

Ooh, can the batteries also trigger pop-up consent dialogs?

This is a waste of money. All flagship phones have hit the requirements so do not need to make them removable. It might impact some of the budget garbage but not yet clear. All this will do is increase compliance costs.

80% after 1000 cycles. I hope that doesn’t mean faking battery health instead.

Smartwatches should also be on the list. My Apple Watch 8 is at 76% maximum capacity. Apparently it costs $99 to have Apple replace the battery, which is probably not worth it.

By then who knows maybe China's nuclear battery will be available to the public.

I wish the EU would tackle standardization of tool batteries. It's so stupid that every brand has their own battery system.

What is a “special tool”? A Philips screwdriver is pretty clearly not, but is a T-5 Torx? A security T-5? A Tri-wing? A Pentalobe?

I'm still mad about not being able to buy a phone with an external RF connector.

Controversial I know, but EU regulations are largely reasonable and mostly come down to good practices. For example I was part of a team building a crewing application for container ships and largely I agree with almost all of the conclusions we came to in making the app GDPR compliant.

The link is not working for me, but I hope they have defined what "removable" means (removable without special tools) If not, a lot of companies are going to argue that they already make removable batteries

It would be nice to have mandatory SD cards..

Absolutely trash aftermarket batteries that are e-waste in 6 months here we come!

A better law would be standardized batteries only. Being hard/impossible to replace is only part of the problem. When third-party "compatible" batteries are the only option available 3 years after release, this will just make it easier for people to turn their phones into bombs.<p>It be nice if this was true of laptops as well, along with a requirement that they can run plugged in, with no battery installed, so people don't have to keep their puffy proprietary battery even though it can't hold a charge any more.

And make all these batteries compatible among all smartphone brands

Right to repair for the win.

EU is awesome!

I want a phone with li-ion 18650! Because having a replaceable batteries won’t prevent the manufacturer from increasing those batteries prices so it’s equal to non replaceable ones. It would be great to have 18650 as a standard in all electronics, so you just carry dozens of them when you go out and you are set up for the weekend, no recharging, maybe even add hot swap too.

I'm not a fan of regulation in general but over the last decade it has been <i>extremely frustrating</i> with the removal of replaceable SD cards and batteries from Androids.<p>I never put my phones in my back pocket nor do I wear butt hugging leggings, so having a thick phone stick out my ass and make it look bad isn't on my list of worries. I end up purchasing thick waterproof cases for these slim phones anyways.<p>What's most confusing is the <i>premium</i> phones lack replaceable SD cards and batteries - it's like they are trying to take the <i>worst</i> ideas from the Apple ecosystem and simply don't understand why some people use Androids.<p>Surprisingly, it's the cheaper models that carry replaceable SD cards and batteries - I would have imagined the opposite!<p>I often go on trips and hikes with poor cellular coverage and having some SD cards with useful information or being able to swap them out as the camera gets full is really helpful. Attaching drives over the USB port isn't really practical.<p>When I do have cellular coverage, I might have to rapidly download a LOT of data, which overheats the phone and discharges the battery. With a replaceable battery, this isn't even an issue.<p>The benefits of replaceable batteries cannot be overstated when you're not on the grid or take great care of the phone where they last more than a few years. I can have a few batteries charged, during the day using solar that I can then just swap them in as evening sets in, instead of having to plug the phone into a powerbank and pray it doesn't shut off as I keep using it.

...and Apple will be exempt due to a loophole in the law (80% after 1k cycles) making the law utterly pointless.

This should be for the market to decide, not EU bureaucrats.<p>If I want a thicker, clunkier, less waterproof phone with a user-replaceable battery, I can already buy a Fairphone or a Samsung Galaxy XCover6 Pro, or whatever.<p>The reason people buy iPhones and flagship Samsung phones is they want the benefits that come from a design that doesn't have to make sacrifices to accomodate a user-replaceable battery.

Why not anything that has a battery? Why just cellphones?

I think this was discussed recently on HN. It’s not a bad idea. There’s nothing about this that “ruins” anything else. This is not specific for phones even if everyone focuses on them. The usual arguments are waterproofing and thinness but we can still have them with removable batteries.

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So now the EU want to design phones too. What could possible go wrong.

Another anti poor person law

The introduction of glue into the assembly of consumer electronics is a crime against humanity and the Earth. If Timex could make iron-man watches 100-meter waterproof with Phillips-head jeweler's screws back in the '80s, there's no good reason smartphones and laptops can't. And there's a whole host of <i>bad</i> reasons to eschew screws.

Does this need a law? Most phones have replaceable battery.

so more regulations to raise prices extract tax revenues by EU

Regulatory Superpower<p>I am european and proud.. but what has europe created in the last 20 years worth of mention

While sounding nice in theory, these sorts of regulations will certainly curtail innovation while providing very, very little value elsewhere.<p>If people wanted removable batteries in their phones, they would buy them a lot. They don't.

Unless you have giant hands, with modern screen sizes, thinner devices are not merely a luxury. For people that have active outdoor lives, water resistance is also non-negotiable.<p>The only thing that you should care about if you are being pratical and not just an annoying nagging geek, is that you are not forced to use an authorized reseller to buy a replacement battery, and that batteries can be bought from third party suppliers.<p>Having to have a corner-shop cheap technician doing it once every 3 years is an acceptable trade-off in exchange to get thinner and water-resistant devices.